Goodness! I don't know if this will be deleted but I am so saddened by what I just read! The other post on here that was closed (much too late in my opinion) by MrGenie was horrible! (Through no fault of yours MrGenie) People can claim they are "debating" when in fact they are using their intellect to put others down. I don't think that many of the posts on that thread were appropriate and I seriously think that it is awful how many ADULTS on this site were attacking teens and younger in their replies! My goodness, as an adult I would think you could find something more productive to do with your time than argue with a teenager about a mundane subject such as boyfriends and girlfriends on VMK. Do you really care? I know I don't. As long as they stay out of my rooms and play nice they can do whatever they please. Either way, I feel it is everyones RIGHT to have an opinion, but when it has to come to underhanded personal blows, which is what I observed, it is not O.K. There is no need to be like that. This is not exactly a Disney site, but close enough for me. I seriously am appalled at how awful I have seen some people behave in this forum. Do you all realize how many people who post on this site are actually CHILDREN? If you really must sling mud, go do it on an adult forum. What is funny about that is most of the posts I have seen on here would have been quickly deleted on the "other" site I am a member of.

Didn't I say this once before? Can't we all just GET ALONG?

Didn't I say this once before? Can't we all just GET ALONG?[/COLOR]

I wish I could say yes, but there will always be some sort of scuffle going on.

Well said, Indychick.

Too bad people can't just be kind.

of course, I've said my share of not kind things out of anger, but the number of "not nice" posts (maybe two or three?) out of the almost 400 I have made...

Indychick, thank you so much. This needed to be said so long ago, we've just been all to shy to do it!

I believe, she's hit the nail on the head. If anything, the fan site is getting quite catty. Especially when it comes to the BF/GF issue. And it's happened before which is sad. I try to sound like I know what I'm talking about, and I feel like I should be able to voice my opinion without being shot down like a skeet! I'm totally fine, in fact, I welcome your disagreement because that's what pushes a message board along. It's just that I believe many people are taking disagreement and turning into almost a personal attack.

I don't heart ad hominem!

*sigh* I'm gladi didn't see that thread. I might of had a few 'remarks' of my own to the ppl who were being rude :mad:



lol ;)

People can claim they are "debating" when in fact they are using their intellect to put others down.

As far as I'm concerned, the problem stems from the fact these people are not using their intellect -- otherwise they wouldn't be resorting to the insults, threat, and general childishness we see in these posts.

The thread in question was perhaps the worst I've seen. Fortunately, many of you did not get to see how awful it got since {we} deleted some of the most outrageous posts. And what is most disturbing to me was comments made by a member who, up to that time, I had great respect for.

But that's why we have moderators, and why I became one. Rules and guidelines are not always fun, but they're there specifically to control things like what you saw. And we're not perfect, but we are truly doing the best we can.

I would like to see us all get along, too. And I really like what IndyChick said. But like any family, we're bound to have a Cousin It lurking somewhere waiting to make us all miserable. The decent people in the forum kinda need to be prepared for it and just let a lot of things roll of their backs.

I wish we all could get along. And I don't think we should have to hold some sort of party for all the people on the forums, just to bring us all together. (Although that would be really cool!) But we should all learn to get along the way Tigger and Piglet, from Pooh Bear, teached us.

...But that's why we have moderators, and why I became one. Rules and guidelines are not always fun, but they're there specifically to control things like what you saw. And we're not perfect, but we are truly doing the best we can.

I would like to see us all get along, too. And I really like what IndyChick said. But like any family, we're bound to have a Cousin It lurking somewhere waiting to make us all miserable. The decent people in the forum kinda need to be prepared for it and just let a lot of things roll of their backs.I wholeheartedly agree with GreatGatsby here, and I just wanted to echo his comments. Being a Moderator is a difficult balancing act...on one hand, we want to allow people to freely express themselves within the bounds of the Forum Rules. On the other hand, we want this to be a safe place where people can get along; we won't always agree with each other (wouldn't that be scary and no fun?), but I see no reason for personal attacks or hurt feelings. This is the difficult balancing act--at what point does a Moderator step in and say, "this thread has crossed the limit?" When a thread is closed or hidden, this upsets the people who were posting there, and I can understand why. However, when things are allowed to carry on a little too far like the thread in question here, then it's upsetting for a different reason.

I guess my point is this: as Moderators, we are trying to do the very best job we can, and we care enough about the forum to donate our time and energy into making it a better place. You may not always agree with our decisions, and we may not always make the best decisions, but please be patient with us. If you don't understand the reason for a Moderator action, please do not hesitate to contact one of us...I think we are all more than willing to explain our reasoning and to try to see your side of things as well. I have changed my initial opinion or course of action several times based on receiving additional feedback.

As a reminder, if you come across a post or a thread that you think has gone too far, please click on the red triangle in the upper right hand corner and report it. This sends an e-mail to all of the Mods and is usually a more effective way of dealing with a bad post than you responding to the bad post. Also, if you see a Mod or Admin in the list of online Members (we all show up in pink...thanks a lot, Silly Princess!), you might also be able to get our attention quickly with a PM. Please don't abuse this though; we get a lot of PMs as it is. :)

Lastly, have fun! That's the reason why we're all here. ;)

People can claim they are "debating" when in fact they are using their intellect to put others down.The whole point is, I never did put anyone down. I never flamed. And honestly, that is why you are all so angry. Because I know about argumentation. If anyone wants to have a good debate with me, they may use their own "intellect" as well. There is nothing wrong with being intelligent.

I don't think that many of the posts on that thread were appropriate and I seriously think that it is awful how many ADULTS on this site were attacking teens and younger in their replies!You can take this up with MrGenie; he seemed to think most of the posts were fine. And like I said before, I wasn't attacking anyone, I was attacking an argument, which is exactly what debate IS.

My goodness, as an adult I would think you could find something more productive to do with your time than argue with a teenager about a mundane subject such as boyfriends and girlfriends on VMK. Do you really care? I know I don't. As long as they stay out of my rooms and play nice they can do whatever they please.As an adult who plays VMK watching a bunch of other ADULTS rallying up kids to protest and flame those who enjoy the VMK dating scene, I think I have the right to an opinion. Sure, you are okay with what the guests do outside your own room, but what of those who just keep whining about it? Like I said in the previous thread, I am every bit as sick of hearing them all complain about the girlfriend/boyfriend scene as they are sick of the scene itself!
And as an adult, I imagine you had better things to do that to post this thread, but this is what you chose to do with your time this morning, right?

Either way, I feel it is everyones RIGHT to have an opinion, but when it has to come to underhanded personal blows, which is what I observed, it is not O.K. There is no need to be like that.Which personal blows are you referring to? Sure, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it isn't a personal blow to know how to argue an issue with someone. It isn't a personal blow for two opinions to clash. Exactly what are you implying? Is it 1) it was a personal blow because I know the rules of logical argumentation or 2) it was a personal blow because I didn't agree with them all in the first place?

This is not exactly a Disney site, but close enough for me. I seriously am appalled at how awful I have seen some people behave in this forum. Do you all realize how many people who post on this site are actually CHILDREN? If you really must sling mud, go do it on an adult forum. What is funny about that is most of the posts I have seen on here would have been quickly deleted on the "other" site I am a member of.First, I would like to repeat once again that I was never "slinging mud". I am so sorry everyone was so incredibly offended by my "intellect". Like I said in the previous thread, you would have all rather I sounded like a moron and said "i think you idea is bad wrong" so you could all have made your point. Well, too bad, I'm not going to dumb down my ability to argue an issue just because you don't want anyone disagreeing with you.
Secondly, Forums are for information and sharing, but they are also for debates just like this one. I would LOVE for children to have an opportunity to see how argumentation and debate really work. They have classes to teach this subject in the high schools now, you know. As long as people are actually debating and NOT slinging mud, I don't see a problem with it.

Didn't I say this once before? Can't we all just GET ALONG?Actually, I was in a room in VMK last night with several of the people I was debating with yesterday, and we WERE just getting along. Just because we disagree on a subject, doesn't mean we are 'enemies' and 'not getting along'. That is such a short-sighted view. I think most of the people involved in the debate yesterday are a little more mature than that.

Interesting SallySally.

You should have just moved on.

I, myself, was actually referring to someone else. But I believe you have helped support my point about some members needing to let things roll off their backs, although I'm certain that was not your intent.

Unfortunately, you have also managed supported those who claim someone always turn these threads into knock-down drag-outs.

Looking carefully at what you have posted, almost every one of your paragraph contains a flame, personal attack, or other item some members have been complaining about.

I can't help but find it so humorous that when you jumped into this conversation, you managed to give almost perfect examples of what goes wrong. And, based on what you said, I somehow get the feeling you don't understand that's what you did.

What is apparent is you do not understand the difference between a debate and an attack. Your post proves that in several places.

Please take my suggestion and move on before you put your foot in it deeper than you just did.

Unfortunately, you have also managed supported those who claim someone always turn these threads into knock-down drag-outs.
Looking carefully at what you have posted, almost every one of your paragraph contains a flame, personal attack, or other item some members have been complaining about.Really? Can you please quote me and show me my errors?

You can take this up with MrGenie; he seemed to think most of the posts were fine. And like I said before, I wasn't attacking anyone, I was attacking an argument, which is exactly what debate IS.I'll just chime in here briefly since you were kind enough to give me a shout-out. ;) I did think most of the posts were okay, though there was definitely a certain tension in the air that doesn't usually accompany healthy debate. I don't recall having a specific problem with any of your posts, SallySally; however, you seem to have taken Indychick's comments way too personally since your entire post was basically defending your argumentation skillz and "intellect". Unless you also intend to defend some of the nastier late posts in that thread (in addition to the deleted ones you may not have seen), I don't think you can really dispute Indychick's general point just by personally defending yourself.

Unless you also intend to defend some of the nastier late posts in that thread (in addition to the deleted ones you may not have seen), I don't think you can really dispute Indychick's general point just by personally defending yourself.Agreed. I never attempted to argue her general point, I was simply defending my own part in it (and I did have kind of a big part in it). There is no place in that thread where I personally flamed. If there was, I want to see a quote so my argumentation skills will get better. ;) And actually, she was talking about me when she said:People can claim they are "debating" when in fact they are using their intellect to put others down.was she not?
As for everone else, what they said is their business. They can take a stab at defending themselves.

Sigh, this is all quite pathetic. No one is attacking anyone else. If anyone should feel attacked it should be SallySally and myself. The Horrific post I made yesterday which resulted in terribly made assumptions and then of course the thread being locked before a rebutle could be served was in no way a flame. I was pointing out the irony of someone being so hyped up and telling everyone else to calm down. In fact based on her post which followed it would seem as though she took it in good humor. Mr.Genie, though, assumes it to be a flame, so he tries to rub my nose in the irony of my post. Irony that does not exist. This of course is ironic in and of itself. But of course "If you don't see the irony here, then I'm not going to waste my time explaining it."

Sigh, this is all quite pathetic. No one is attacking anyone else. If anyone should feel attacked it should be SallySally and myself. The Horrific post I made yesterday which resulted in terribly made assumptions and then of course the thread being locked before a rebutle could be served was in no way a flame. I was pointing out the irony of someone being so hyped up and telling everyone else to calm down. In fact based on her post which followed it would seem as though she took it in good humor. Mr.Genie, though, assumes it to be a flame, so he tries to rub my nose in the irony of my post. Irony that does not exist. This of course is ironic in and of itself. But of course "If you don't see the irony here, then I'm not going to waste my time explaining it."Thank you for confirming yet again that your own personal definition of flaming is inconsistent with that of the forum's. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but ultimately you do not get to decide what flaming is and is not here, no matter how many times you try. Regardless of how you feel, I'd ask you to respect our admittedly conservative view on flaming; feel free to start your own forum somewhere else if you're feeling too muzzled by our rules.

I stand by my assessment of your final post in the aforementioned thread. How anybody could view your statement, "You've used more exclamation points in your single post than this board has seen in it's entire lifespan..." as anything other than a personal flame is ridiculous. What argument were you attacking here, exactly? Maybe you missed it, but the current punctuation discussion is over here (http://www.vmkforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2013).

Do you read my post or do you just assume whatever said is a flame and write me off for it. If that post is inconsistant with the forum's definition of a flame then your *own* post made yesterday was a flame as well. As said in my last post, I was pointing out the irony of her post. I was not attacking her, I was not attacking an issue. Just making a statement that perhaps some would find humor in and apparently the poster herself did just that.

It would seem to me that some people have come to have such jaded views of certain individuals that the posts they make are no longer read for content but rather automatically taken as an attack. I don't even think the definition of flame needs to be looked at but perhaps people should look at how they perceive what is said.

Do you read my post or do you just assume whatever said is a flame and write me off for it.Despite the fact that I see a consistent pattern in your writing style that is decidedly antagonistic, rest assured that I continue to read each post and evaluate it for it's own merit.

If that post is inconsistant with the forum's definition of a flame then your *own* post made yesterday was a flame as well.Have a specific example handy? Because I fail to see the similarities between what you said and what I said.

As said in my last post, I was pointing out the irony of her post. I was not attacking her, I was not attacking an issue. Just making a statement that perhaps some would find humor in and apparently the poster herself did just that.I'm glad she found some humor in your post, whereas I did not; personally, I was of the impression that she was just trying to make peace and get her thread back on track, but who knows...maybe some people actually enjoy being insulted.

It would seem to me that some people have come to have such jaded views of certain individuals that the posts they make are no longer read for content but rather automatically taken as an attack.Thank you for putting an Aerosmith song in my head. Hopefully, I can replace it with one of their better works soon.

I don't even think the definition of flame needs to be looked at but perhaps people should look at how they perceive what is said.What's the point of having Forum Rules if we can't look at and cite them? Wouldn't the alternative be worse? At least there's been an attempt to draw a line in the sand here rather than someone just arbitrarily deciding what constitutes a flame. Admittedly, it's easier to be misinterpreted in written communication; that's why we have smileys, but they only go so far. Still, I think that is even more reason to be extra careful about what you say rather than begging for more leniency.

OMG!It is awful that this board is becoming what the creator was protesting SallySally if you want to intitle your own opinion please make your own board instead of flaming on others!Thank you and have a nice day!

OMG! It is awful that this board is becoming what the creator was protesting SallySally if you want to intitle your own opinion please make your own board instead of flaming on others! Thank you and have a nice day!

With all due respect Zim and Gir, SallySally was trying combat posts like this. Honestly, even though I'm at odds with her in our opinions, I respect her as a poster. She's entitled to her opinion, just like we're all entitled to let those opinions be heard and to respond rationally to what they've said. Sadly, there are too many replies where people choose to take other avenues of discussion.

Seeing as I'm a frequent poster in our more, say, heated topics I'd like to chime in with my opinion. Seeing as we're communicating through text and therefore don't have the wonderful tool of inflection...things just get interpreted differently. There are lots of times in many posts where I have felt hurt or been put down. I try my hardest not to step on any toes, but there seems to be some posters who try their hardest to step on many as possible.

BTW, if you want examples and if we can have a more personal chat...send me off an IM or a PM...I'd love to chat with you guys.

I understand but in one of SallySally's post she really hurted my feelings because i am a kid and i hate how our society makes everyone have a negative emotion towards kids we are not the Spittin,Cherry-Bombin Kids you see on T.V most of us are really different!Just a Thought and sorry if this post does not make sense lol :)!

Actually, FlyThenFall, another of the members of this board and I were chatting about this thread (and the previous one), and specifically about your part in it just this morning. I will have you know that both he and I greatly respect your debating skills. You stick to the topic and don't resort to mass flaming and stupid comments. And you know the difference between a personal attack and an attack on an argument.
I look forward to continued reading of your posts, and possible debates. It is great to debate with someone who actually speaks to the subject.

I understand but in one of SallySally's post she really hurted my feelings because i am a kid and i hate how our society makes everyone have a negative emotion towards kids we are not the Spittin,Cherry-Bombin Kids you see on T.V most of us are really different!Just a Thought and sorry if this post does not make sense lol :)!Which post was that, Zim and Gir? I certainly don't have debates to hurt people's feelings. I argue about topics. I didn't think I said anything bad about kids; I have two kids and they are great. I don't have any negative emotions about kids; just grown ups who don't let kids have good innocent fun.

Really? Can you please quote me and show me my errors?
Very well.


And honestly, that is why you are all so angry. Because I know about argumentation. This is baiting. You are also telling people what they think, which is another issue entirely.


You can take this up with MrGenie; he seemed to think most of the posts were fine. Personal attack.


I was attacking an argument, which is exactly what debate IS.Talking down to other members; i.e. insulting members in general.


As an adult who plays VMK watching a bunch of other ADULTS rallying up kids I consider the emphasis on the second use of the word adult a flame, but admittedly that's debatable given the loose interpretation of the term. Nevertheless, it is hostility aforethought on your part.


And as an adult, I imagine you had better things to do that to post this thread, but this is what you chose to do with your time this morning, right?Personal attack


. . . because I know the rules of logical argumentationTalking down again


I am so sorry everyone was so incredibly offended by my "intellect". Talking down again


Like I said in the previous thread, you would have all rather I sounded like a moron and said "i think you idea is bad wrong" so you could all have made your point.General attack on forum members


Well, too bad, I'm not going to dumb down my ability to argue an issue just because you don't want anyone disagreeing with you.Since you are addressing IndyChick’s statement, this is a personal attack. If not, it’s still a general attack


That is such a short-sighted view. I think most of the people involved in the debate yesterday are a little more mature than that.Since you are again responding to IndyChick, this is a personal attack. If not specifically to her, it’s another general attack on forum members.


Since you have invited me to show "errors," I suppose I am allowed to continue.

Here are other quotes from your post I think needs a little more consideration on your part. You make some statements below, and my immediate response is "physician, heal thyself."

Because I know about argumentation. A very big statement to make. However, I'm not convinced about this.


I wasn't attacking anyone, I was attacking an argument, which is exactly what debate IS. True, if you had stopped there. But in what I've seen, you don't just attack arguments; you also attack people as well. That is not what a debate is. You seem to say one thing, then turn around and do another.


And as an adult, I imagine you had better things to do that to post this thread, but this is what you chose to do with your time this morning, right?And so did you. Interesting, that.


but it isn't a personal blow to know how to argue an issue with someone. I would agree if I was convinced you knew how to as well.


I'm not going to dumb down my ability to argue an issue Then stick to arguing the issue, not about the people themselves.


I would LOVE for children to have an opportunity to see how argumentation and debate really work. They have classes to teach this subject in the high schools now, you know. As long as people are actually debating and NOT slinging mud, I don't see a problem with it.As I presented above, your posts was littered with personal attacks and indirect insults. I consider that slinging mud. And I'm not the only one who does.


Again, I urge you to strongly reconsider the path you are choosing to take here. This thread did not start about you; you were never mentioned, and I was not discussing you myself. However, you decided to take it personally and let fly with a strongly worded and largely uncalled for post.


Please move on.

Sorry then it must of been someone else when you bring this up i have to applaud your and flythenfall debating skills i am no debater but all of you put up a good point LOL!-Creeps out of thread-

Before i leave to a new Board i agree with GreatGatsby Bye!

Interesting. I don't consider any of these personal attacks at all.
And honestly, that is why you are all so angry. Because I know about argumentation. This isn't "baiting", this is a personal opinion; a reasonable conclusion come to by observation. And as for understanding how arguments work, I'm not the King, but I'm certainly not the worst.
You can take this up with MrGenie; he seemed to think most of the posts were fine.Exactly how is this a personal attack? In my opinion, Indychick was attacking MrGenie on his choice of editing in the forum.
I was attacking an argument, which is exactly what debate IS.How is this 'talking down to other members'? I am making a statement. Several people complained in the previous posts about needing a dictionary, so why is my loosely defining 'debate' some kind of attack?
As an adult who plays VMK watching a bunch of other ADULTS rallying up kidsA flame against who? All adults in this forum? How is this a flame? This is simply another personal opinion come to through observation in this forum regarding the VMK boyfriend/girlfriend debate.
And as an adult, I imagine you had better things to do that to post this thread, but this is what you chose to do with your time this morning, right?was a direct rebuttal of the statement:My goodness, as an adult I would think you could find something more productive to do with your time than argue with a teenager about a mundane subject such as boyfriends and girlfriends on VMK.and was representative of that statement only. Not personal attack. An example of how the statement was inappropriate. If my statement was a flame, then so was hers. And as for your commentAnd so did you. Interesting, that.I wasn't the one who had a problem with adults spending their days debating topics online.
. . . because I know the rules of logical argumentationAgain, how is this talking down? I am quite impressed with FlyThenFall and Bruen both. I'm certain that there are things everyone on this board know that I don't know. I wouldn't think they were talking down to me if they said "I know about Baseball" or something of the like.
I am so sorry everyone was so incredibly offended by my "intellect".was written as a comment to the statementPeople can claim they are "debating" when in fact they are using their intellect to put others down. which was a statement directed at my use of the latin terms for logical fallacies in the previous thread.
Like I said in the previous thread, you would have all rather I sounded like a moron and said "i think you idea is bad wrong" so you could all have made your point.Seen as how this entire thread is based on how angry people are that others are "using their intellect to put others down" and trying to "out-big-word a teenager", I think this assumption is valid. And it certainly is not a personal attack on any forum members, it is an observation.
Well, too bad, I'm not going to dumb down my ability to argue an issue just because you don't want anyone disagreeing with you.Actually, this sentence followed the quote above it, so it is obvious that I was not at all addressing Indychick in this statement. Please quote me in proper context.
That is such a short-sighted view. I think most of the people involved in the debate yesterday are a little more mature than that.How is this an attack? I see it more as kudos to the people I debated with all day yesterday, then went online and played with in VMK! I just don't think Indychick knew all that.

Anything else?

Mr.Genie, if you do indeed read my posts then you obviously do not understand them or more likely you read them in the manor that best suites your own cause. Your last post in the last thread was as close to a flame as I have ever come. You can keep taking my posts apart sentence by sentence if you wish, because of course once you have a sentence by itself the context is lost and you can warp the meaning however you desire. I'm sure I could make you look like quite the villian were it my desire but that's not my aim. Honestly right now I'm on the defensive. Not that I'm backpedaling mind you, just defending my points as so many people seem to misunderstand both the words and their intent. Rest assured though I will *never* *ever* beg.

As far as my looking at the definition of a flame, I was not meaning it should not be referred to. Rather I meant that we are not here debating the definition. I am not pushing my definition of it on anyone as you seem to assume. I clearly said that what needs to be re-rexamined is how you interpret the statements. You can find an attack anywhere if you wish. Gatsby clearly demonstrated this with his exhausting post going sentence by sentence through SallySally's post. Never have I attacked anyone directly and if I have touched the line at all let me apolagize here and now.

It's quite obvious the intended target of peoples generalized insults. The villian of the boards who no one will call out by name. I like the debates. Yes they can be heated but if you aren't passionate about what you write then you may as well not write anything at all because it will have no meaning. The key is to not mistake the fury of a post as an attack. I assure you all I am quite capable of distinguishing an arguement from the person making it. I know where to focus my energies and my words.

You can take this up with MrGenie; he seemed to think most of the posts were fine.Exactly how is this a personal attack? In my opinion, Indychick was attacking MrGenie on his choice of editing in the forum.I'm not going to get pulled back into this whole debacle...it's just too negative already. However, since my name popped up again and I feel Indychick is being severly misquoted, let me attempt to set the record straight (my emphasis added):

The other post on here that was closed (much too late in my opinion) by MrGenie was horrible! (Through no fault of yours MrGenie)Thank you for the kind words, Indychick. I appreciate the support.

EDIT: Bruen, I appreciate your conciliatory reply. I think that you make some very valid points, and I appreciate your attempts to explain yourself again. I re-read my last post in the other thread and still don't see anything flaming about it; though my frustration is readily apparent, I don't see any personal attack towards you...I even took care to qualify my two most direct statements with "If...".

Just so you know, I was not attempting to pick apart your post and take things out of context. I left sentences together that contained complete thoughts and believed my replies would be more helpful if I responded to each of your thoughts. I will make an extra effort to read your posts more carefully and PM you if see something that raises a red flag. I can't recall ever actually editing any of your posts to date, so I hope you don't feel like I am singling you out. Also, I am curious who you are refering to when you say the "villian of the boards who no one will call out by name..." I was not aware such a person existed; maybe you are feeling particularly villified as of late and are referring to yourself? Please PM me if you want to bring me into the loop on this since I haven't a clue. :)

Anything else?

Simply this. I have requested several times you consider your tone and wording. You asked for examples, and I provided.

You may reinterpret those posts as you wish, but I will not request again.

As far as I'm concerned, the problem stems from the fact these people are not using their intellect -- otherwise they wouldn't be resorting to the insults, threat, and general childishness we see in these posts.

The thread in question was perhaps the worst I've seen. Fortunately, many of you did not get to see how awful it got since {we} deleted some of the most outrageous posts. And what is most disturbing to me was comments made by a member who, up to that time, I had great respect for.

But that's why we have moderators, and why I became one. Rules and guidelines are not always fun, but they're there specifically to control things like what you saw. And we're not perfect, but we are truly doing the best we can.

I would like to see us all get along, too. And I really like what IndyChick said. But like any family, we're bound to have a Cousin It lurking somewhere waiting to make us all miserable. The decent people in the forum kinda need to be prepared for it and just let a lot of things roll of their backs.


Hey! Cousin It was cool! Don't bring him into this!

Hey! Cousin It was cool! Don't bring him into this!

Yeah, bad choice or relatives. How about Cousin Eddie Johnson?

Yeah, bad choice or relatives. How about Cousin Eddie Johnson?

Since you used the family metaphor, "black sheep" may have been a suitable term too. ;)

Bruen, I appreciate your conciliatory reply. I think that you make some very valid points, and I appreciate your attempts to explain yourself again.Just so you know, I was not attempting to pick apart your post and take things out of context. I left sentences together that contained complete thoughts and believed my replies would be more helpful if I responded to each of your thoughts. I will make an extra effort to read your posts more carefully and PM you if see something that raises a red flag.MrGenie, you are exemplary moderator. It is most appreciated by me, and I am sure others on this forum that when someone tries to explain what they meant by their own post that you re-read it and try to understand the context. I have personally very much enjoyed the debate, and especially both FlyThenFall and Bruen. Thank you for not using your muscle as a moderator to shut people up (argumentum ad baculum; it means "he made her an offer she couldn't refuse").

You may reinterpret those posts as you wish, but I will not request again.

The only *re*interpreting of Sally's words I see are the ones you yourself made Gatsby. Sally merely defended her position and the points she made against your slanderous attack against the credibility of her post. You needed something to defend your point so you created it out of nothing by tearing apart her post sentence by sentence until the meaning could be twisted any way you pleased. Seems to be a common trend here on the boards. If you can't dispute the post and it's context in it's entirety, you lose.

As for interpretation in general I think a mod should be willing to let a person re-explain the meaning of their words as Sally did for you and as I did to Mr.Genie. There was conflict as there will always be but ultimately a resolution was reached without the need to bully someone around with the "whatever I say is right" mentality. Yes mods ultimately have the final say but an appeal should not automatically be disregarded.

Heh, Mr.Genie sorry I became heated towards ya. When the the conflict shifts from me vs members to me vs a mod I can become defensive alot quicker than I normally would. It is good to see you step out of the role of mod for a bit and take part in the actual conversation though. Hopefully next time we are on the same side. Though I suppose what fun is a test of wits if your aren't pitted against a respectable oppenant =P.

Gatsby interpreted her post in accordance to the guidelines. To be completely honest, many of those posts in this thread are breaking the flaming rule, but I'm going to leave it up to the other mods as to what they want done with this thread.

MrGenie, you are exemplary moderator. It is most appreciated by me, and I am sure others on this forum that when someone tries to explain what they meant by their own post that you re-read it and try to understand the context. I have personally very much enjoyed the debate, and especially both FlyThenFall and Bruen. Thank you for not using your muscle as a moderator to shut people up (argumentum ad baculum; it means "he made her an offer she couldn't refuse").Thank you for the kind words; I know we won't always see eye-to-eye, but I really appreciate that you can tell I'm doing my best. As a former debater myself, I always enjoy a real debate that doesn't just go round in circles or consist of personal attacks. It's difficult to strike a balance of how much to allow on a "G" rated public forum...to the untrained eye, a healthy debate can look strikingly similar to an all-out flame war; a failure on the part of some to make this distinction does not automatically imply that the debate is inappropriate here, but at the same time it should cause all well-intentioned debaters to edit themselves a little more carefully to avoid unintentional misunderstanding.

Heh, Mr.Genie sorry I became heated towards ya. When the the conflict shifts from me vs members to me vs a mod I can become defensive alot quicker than I normally would. It is good to see you step out of the role of mod for a bit and take part in the actual conversation though. Hopefully next time we are on the same side. Though I suppose what fun is a test of wits if your aren't pitted against a respectable oppenant =P.I admit I got frustrated and came off a little more gruff/terse than I would have liked, both yesterday and this morning, and I'm sorry for that. Did it really seem like I stepped outside of my "moderator box" here in order to voice a few opinions of my own? I would hope the two roles aren't mutually exclusive, but I can see how the overlap can be a little tricky at times. Regardless of what capacity I am operating in, ultimately I just try to follow the forum rules and be as helpful as possible. I hope you aren't overly intimidated into a defensive position exclusively due to my "moderator" status; as SallySally pointed out, I try not to ever abuse my muscle and stifle legitimate debate. I closed the thread yesterday when I felt like I needed to, not just to get the last word in (although I'm not sure we'll ever agree on that! :)). Know this though...if you're intimidated by me with my "mod gloves" on, the outcome would be even uglier if I took them off. ;)

Gatsby interpreted her post in accordance to the guidelines. To be completely honest, many of those posts in this thread are breaking the flaming rule, but I'm going to leave it up to the other mods as to what they want done with this thread.

Heh, that's exactly what I said. He interpreted her post based on the guidelines. Now, the guidelines: a static, unchanging, set of rules. There is no interpretation to be made on the guidelines. Interpreting a person's post, however, is up to the reader. In this case Gatsby took it upon himself to accept Sally's challenge of finding a flame within her posts. Of course he was able to do this by taking a random sentence, quoting it, and giving some reason, any reason at all, so as to validate his claim that it went against the guidelines. The guidelines in this case were not used as a criterion by which to judge a post but rather a mold in which to shape a person's words.

This is where I make my arguement. I understand the rules. The case I'm arguing is that in the heat of the conversation many will feel as though a statement was a personal attack or the tone of a post was malevolent. We must read the posts as they are written in not perceive every feirce comment or word as an attack. Every hasty rebutle is not to offend another.

Disagreement is not flaming. Argument is not flaming. Flaming is something beyond that. I sincerely hope people here can disagree without taking every disagreement as a flame. (I am not accusing anyone in particular of doing this; I am speaking in the general sense of what I would hope to see.)

Because, what fun is it to talk about things if no one can ever disagree? :)

*takes a big breath* Okaaaay.....I did not think that my post would spark yet another debate! I couldn't decide whether I should laugh or feel absolutely awful about it. I suppose I did a little of both.

First, thank you for your support GreatGatsby, I appreciate your kind words.

Second, as MrGenie quoted, I do not blame him for the way the posts were moderated, that was not the intent of what I wrote. I am very sorry if it appeared as such.

Third, Flythenfall is a very eloquent and well spoken young man who has the grace to be kind even when others are not. I admire this quality about him and it is one of the reasons I enjoy his company on this game so much. I also have had many fun conversations with him in VMK and I have to say I enjoy his maturity and wonderful sense of humor immensely.

Fourth, people are WAY to sensitive. I did not only think SallySally was using her "intellect" in that post, others were also doing so. I just feel that feelings were much too heated and I saw no need for it to be that way. Of course the ironic part of it all is that most of the people I actually "know" on the game were trying very hard to not be upset by the posts directed at them. Kudos to them. I think it is great that you are smart SallySally, but I also think it is unfair to direct verbal diatribe at those who may or may not be able to keep up with you. Possessing the ability to outwit others is a quality to be proud of, but it does not mean you need to herald it over others. On top of the fact that I did not realize that these forums were set up as such. Please quit taking things so personally, I would have said your name only if my remarks earlier were aimed directly at you. I apologize for any offense you may have taken. And yes, by the way, I do spend MUCH too much time on this game and the internet in general! I do agree wholeheartedly with you on this point! I feel I need to make sure and attend some of MrGenie's Addict Club meetings.

I will not say fifth, but I will say this.... anyone who refers to herself as the Spam Queen cannot be all that bad (can I?) No one needs to answer that one! :lol:

EDIT, by MrGenie: Indychick started this thread, and I think her thoughtful reply here brings this thread to its logical conclusion. Things got a little heated here again, but I'd rather end here on this positive note so I'm closing this thread (in all honesty, I'm surprised another Mod didn't jump in and stop it already). I look forward to discussing an actual topic with all of you soon, and not just discussing "discussing". :)